Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 11:11:01 -0600
From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Juan Revilla)
Subject: [crp] Chariklo
I'm beginning to get a feel of Chariklo. I think the clue to her meaning is found in:
1- Her story is not bloody, she doesn't die
These facts are also reflected in her orbit, rounder and matching Chiron's. She is not wild or somber in the same sense as Pholus-Nessus-Asbolus.
Chariklo "cares", is very receptive, and generous. In the outcast realm of centaurs, she is more positive astrologically. She cares for the sick and for the dying. She is outside marriage, a mother of fatherless children... she may be unhappily married, have illicit relationships, but she is also a good mate, transcendental unlike Venus. An of course, she is deeply hurt, she hurts herself, she is sad.
The symbolism of the "widow" is very rich. It has a lot to do with initiation, "the son of the widow", the fatherless child, being a term for the initiate. The hierophant as the one who "receives" the initiate... They are both Chariklo.
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 13:55:27 -0600
On October 6 in this forum, I posted a note with my feelings about Chariklo. The essence was <<Chariklo "cares", is very receptive, and generous. In the outcast realm of centaurs, she is more positive astrologically...>>
As I said then, I believe that she carries the symbolism of a "widow", both in the positive and in the negative sense.
I posted a week ago in the Centaurs forum a commentary on the film "The Postman Always Rings Twice", where I feel the "centaurean" symbolism of Chariklo can be seen. This can be read at my website at "collected posts".
... I agree with you that there is something remarkable in Chariklo, whom I feel has a more integrative effect than the other centaurs (probably due to the gentler orbit which only briefly crosses that of Uranus).
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 19:16:15 -0600
Also of note in the chart of Harrison Ford (13 Jul 1947 16:47 UT):
Moon = 18,32 Taurus
In the chart of Boris Karloff, I see Nessus in exact conjunction with
the South node.
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 13:16:26 -0600
A masquerade... the 1800's... In a masquerade people are hiding their true identities, "playing" that nobody will recognize them, you remain "clandestine", and the usual moral prohibitions become thinner since you are protected by the "secret", the "hiding"... "forbidden" desires become stronger as what is morally repressed comes to the surface, exactly as what happens in some contexts like extra-marital relationships, "forbidden" love affairs, etc. Women's desires are usually more repressed (the 1800's context) in society, so "illicit" escapades are one of the best outlets for their expression.
I can feel the "hearth fires" in Chariklo...
... Woman or the repressed woman part in all of us... Chariklo may well be womanly passion" --and I don't mean only sexual passion, but all the "fires" inherent in mature non-adolescent women, or the more mature part of an adolescent that "breaks the rules" and has gone further than what is morally allowed by society or age. Yes! There is something related to the release of moral prohibitions regarding women in Chariklo!
... It is very intriguing to consider the idea that these female centaurs might be clues for all the feminine energy repressed by society and beginning to be liberated into a new kind of earth-culture. I think we will look in vain for the "Liliths" and the "Hekates" among the so-named main-belt asteroids... they are all cultured and domesticated. Centaurs are not. They never will. They will be forever wild. They are the hearts of spades of the solar system...
and Chariklo is the Queen of Spades!
Since centaurs are barrier-crossers, then it is logical to assume that they have something to do with the Berlin Wall, or at least with tearing it down in 1989. Pluto --the archetype of all centaurs-- reached perihelion for the first time in history in Sept. 1989, and it is one of the best astrological signatures of this very symbolical and powerful event of history.
But what about the centaurs? Do they tell us something about this?
Let's establish the dates first.
The Berlin wall <<was first erected on the night of August 12-13, 1961, as the result of a decree passed on August 12t...>> (Britannica). In "American Astrology" of July 1992 p.50 one finds a chart erected for midnight (0h) of Aug. 13:
Moon = 6,23 Virgo
Good sign for the totalitarian decree passed by the East German "People's Chamber" (Volkskammer) and for the wall that became a symbol not only of the Cold War but of the blockade of some essential human feelings --like the need for freedom--, and of course, of the division inside the German family.
The time when the Wall was officially abolished and teared down was the night between November 9 and 10, 1989 (the chart appears on the "American Astrology" issue mentioned above, done also for midnight:
1994TA/Pylenor = 6,57 Pisces Rx.
This is intriguing, especially if you remember that "Pylenor" means "the man from the mountain-pass. At the time the wall was erected, its position is suggestive:
Uranus = 25,45 Leo
Here perhaps Pylenor appears as the sign of "coldness", of cold-bloddedness that thwarted people's freedom and made Uranus show its relationship to dictatorships. One also thinks of the barbed-wire image against which people would be --and were-- killed. There is a relationship between Pylenor and the "rivers of blood", as can be seen in the charts of the czar Nicholas and the czarina Alexandra, in accordance with his mythology.
In the 1961 chart one also finds an interesting lining-up of retrograde centaurs and the main tnp's close to the M.C. from the 9th house:
Chariklo = 12,14 Aquarius Rx
==> and the MC surrounded by the 2 TNP's:
1992QB1 = 15,34 Aquarius Rx
They are all retrograde, which is suggestive of the refraining of freedom and of dissidence that they all represent, whereas the TNP's may be related to the in-humane measure that was taken, as well as the clandestine resistance movement the measure created. 1996TO, the largest of the trans-neptunians, is forming and axis that perhaps describes the hard-line communist leadership:
1996TO66 = 18,30 Aquarius Rx (in the MC)
In the 1989 chart of the crumbling of the Wall, one finds (corrected
Pluto = 14,48 Scorpio
This means that the days before there was a Sun/Pluto conjunction (reminiscent of the tr.Pluto/rx.Sun conjunction that dissolved the Soviet Union soon after), and that Pluto during the whole period had been triggering the dormant (retrograde) Chariklo, Damocles, and Pholus. It is the conjunction of these 3 in the radical chart of 1961, triggered by the square of transiting Pluto from Nov.'88 to Sept.'89, what brought the Wall down just 2 days after the Sun/Pliuto conjunction.
Chariklo and Pholus represent well to me the celebration of youthful brotherhood that took place. Germans --and the whole world with them-- were singing in their hearts the "Ode to Joy" that 200 years before their compatriot Schiller wrote...
Schiller himself was born November 10, 1759, in Marbach, Wurttenberg. It was his birthday... At 12 GMT, we have:
Sun = 17,50 Scorpio
I agree with Hugh that the Enterprise figure on the right is really the symbol of Uranus, and the symbolism of Uranus fits the "Star Trek" associations. Probably one of the reasons I never liked that series was because of the lack of a Neptune-Pluto deeper dimension: it was always around the supremacy of human beings --and of Captain Kirk in particular-- above everything else in the universe.
It could be that the science-fiction associations found in Chariklo have to do with Chariklo being an Uranian gentle-crosser that never comes into the realm of Saturn... it is "in the other side", "beyond the pass".
I never mentioned this before, but I have never liked the symbols used for centaurs, and I never liked the symbol chosen for Chiron. I don't think I will ever use them. I liked much better the "C-H" juxtaposed alternative that was dismissed a long time ago.
Using planet-like symbols for centaurs, to me, does not help to put them in their astrological place. In an ideal world I would use regular symbols for the planets (with Pluto always as "Pl" to de-emphasize the excessive and emotionally-biased Scorpionic associations of the usual alchemical symbol), smaller-sized symbols for main-belt asteroids, and capital letters with a slash (or something similar) for the centaurs and for all orbit crossers.
Letters have the quality of focusing sounds, such as the "F" in Pholus, while at the same time making very clear that we are dealing with a different category of astrological significators. They are not planets in the normal sense. The slash (or something very similar) is the characteristic of being a crosser, in the same way that the radiating coma is the characteristic of a comet when it comes to represent them in a glyph.
In my opinion, not distinguishing between the different types of asteroid orbits when it comes to the type of symbols used in the chart --or in general in the thinking of astrologers-- leads to the triviality and chaos that predominates in this area of modern astrology.
Since Pluto is the first and foremost of the centaurs, there is nothing un-traditional about using letters to represent them, just as the "C-H" for Chiron follows the same principle as the "P-L" for Pluto. Then, the glyph could be a juxtaposition of:
C-H = Chiron
I assume that nobody will like this idea, but regarding centaurs, is the only one that appeals to me so far when working with glyphs. For some very subjective and personal easons, I don't think I could ever work with those symbols that use a tiny little circle as a base, including Chiron. Evenmore: I think one of the reasons why I find it so difficult to work with Chiron is because I hate that symbol so much.
Just confessing myself, and sharing a little...
Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 17:40:44 -0600
I too feel that this euphoria and intoxication is Moon/Pholus. But the image brought to my memory images of the celebration after the fall of the Berlin Wall, Nov. 10, 1989.
In a commentary on this I posted in the past (can be read in my "Notes on Chariklo"), I examined the association of this with Chariklo.
I feel that, in the same way that Pholus can be associated with Mardi Grass, The Festival in Rio, a Masquerade, especially the "intoxication" associated with it, Chariklo is associated with celebration but without intoxication or pholusian "madness-violence". Chariklo is sober.
Of course I cannot prove that. I just would like to remind you of one "coincidence" I mentioned in that post: Schiller, the author of the "Ode to Joy" that every German was probably singing in his soul that 10th of November of 1989, was born a 10th of November, 230 years before (1759), under an exact Sun/Chariklo conjunction.
I feel that Chariklo is a rebel, perhaps like a rebel in the American or French Revolution, or perhaps a rebel like the composer Richard Strauss (another exact Sun/Chariklo), who, despite his centaurean originality and creativity, was not marginal but stood integrated with the ideals of his society (<<a depurated product of the frivolous decadent and happy German society of the end of the XIX Cent. and the beginning of the XXth.>>).
Of course I don't know for sure (don't have enough experience yet), but I still, feel that Chariklo is more "benign" and more integrative than all the other centaurs so far.
This brings to mind images of American Indian women chanting in their
language and performing ancestral healing ceremonies. Now the question
is, in practical terms: how this Chariklo theme manifests itself in everyday
life, and how it is different from Chiron?
I'm going to let my imagination fly a little...
Thinking on the centaurs, "the border of the society" really applies to all of them, if we follow their orbital symbolism. They are neither here nor there, but in-between, always bordering the transcendental world and being "doors" or thresholds to the beyond. Thus socially they are marginal, which is why they can translate into "people of the slum" (Neptune), gangs-life and the social underworld (Pluto)... astronomically this is (presumably) the origin of all centaurs including Chiron.
The orbits of Chiron and of Chariklo, when compared with other centaurs like Pholus, Asbolus, or Nessus, are much rounder, less "acute", so their shamanic qualities are probably more benign. Pholus' shamanic nature is more hostile, dangerous, and/or radical, like that of a trickster. They (Pholus, Nessus, and the like) bring us closer to death and to extremes of all types... they tend to be more "Plutonian" or somber and put in contact with "flight": the dragon's flight over the Wasteland (Nessus), or the flight of the wild eagle over the mountain ranges (Pholus)...
One characteristic of the orbit of Chariklo when compared with Chiron is that Chariklo never reaches Saturn as Chiron does, never "grasps" Saturn, and always remains in the Uranian world, like "pulling" (or "dragging" as Mark said) us away to Uranus. This may give her a sense of independence and of being an "outsider" stronger than that of Chiron, and may represent a "push" into the beyond, hence the association with Science fiction that Zane had found.
Chiron "grasps" both (I remember Hugh using for this crossing the image of the lobster's "claws" after I told him their orbits resembled lobsters), like perhaps trying to integrate them, to "round them". This " rounding" --which is really like a "cutting" because it happens vertically in terms of distance, produces a "vacuum" or a "center" in the space in-between (The Middle Earth?) that for some reason my imagination associates with the symbolic image of the Holy Grail, as a source of a very transcendental healing.
Probably this Grail is never found, we circle around it or approach it, but never "touch it". Probably the centaurs (all of them in their own realms, i.e., Hylonome in Uranus/Neptune), by "cutting" vertically in our lives (pain, death, ecstasy, miracle), bring us closer to it, since all the other planets and regular asteroids never "cut" space like centaurs and the other crossers do.
Beautiful example your grandmother... It could even be that a witch may be unaware that she is one... and we also probably carry this "witch grandmother" inside of each one of us, like an ancestral memory and atavistic power that we have transformed and carry unto our daily lives in our work?
This "magic" can be dangerous... if you come too close to it you will be "cut", the crystal will break, the mystery will come, the arrow will hit you, the woman will crack you...
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:29:39 -0600
This is the name of the first important work written by composer Arnold Schoenberg (1874-1951) in 1899. The German name is "Verklarte Nacht". This composition played an important role during my teens, both the music and the subject-matter. It is based on a poem of the same name by Richard Dehmel (1863-1920), from a book called "Woman and World".
The poem tells of a man whose beloved has conceived a child by another man. Through the man's compassionate forgiveness, their world becomes transfigured.>> [from one of my CD's]
But before forgiveness comes, you can hear in the music the inner torment of the woman before she confesses while they walk under the moon through a barren grove, and the violent inner struggle of the man fighting destructively with himself... until he forgives her and they love each other madly while the world is transfigured around them as they walk out of the forest under the moonlight.
<<I carry a child, and it's not yours,
After the man's inner storm recedes, described by the dark and violent music (the orchestration is for strings only), a transformation happens in him and he speaks:
<<...There is a glow on everything;
<<It will transfigure the stranger's child...>>
I cannot transcribe it all. But this is the world of the centaurs, strongly Plutonian, and specifically of Chariklo. I was looking for Chariklo themes in Schoenberg's (13 Sep 1874) and Dehmel's (18 Nov 1863) charts. I found Schoenberg's Chariklo in 25,58 Leo (made for 4:20 a.m. LMT in Vienna), and Dehmel's Sun is in 25,50 Scorpio (made for Noon GMT). This may be a connection, but I then found a stronger and simpler one in Schoenberg's chart:
-- Solar Arc Chariklo conjunct Sun around May 1899
Schoenberg composed the music in the Summer of 1899, in only 3 weeks, while he was living with his friend Zemlinsky's family. There he met and fell in love with his friend's sister Mathilde, whom he was to marry two years later. And he also composed the music to this poem, using a heavily Wagnerian or "tristanesque" style that he later abandoned completely. But it was his first important work, and it is one of his most popular compositions.
In accordance with centaurean symbolism, the music was composed using harmonies based on Schoenberg's philosophy of the "emancipation of dissonance", and they outraged conservative program committees. When it was first performed in 1902, <<the audience was bewildered an shocked --perhaps more by the subject matter than the music.>> [from my Telarc CD notes by William Baxter].
<<... a melodic line which, at the beginning and in the middle of the work, sounds oppressively heavy and gloomy in its step-wise descent, before reentering twice at the end and ascending towards the light in a apotheosis of radiance and transfiguration.>> [notes on the Sony CD by Hans-Ulrich Fuss]
Yes! The Plutonian-Neptunian flight of the centaurs!
The first performance, in its original form for string sextet was given in Vienna on March 18, 1902 (this date appears in the notes in Sony SMK48465 by Hans-Ulrich Fuss), although I have seen "1903" mentioned in other sources). The position of Chariklo the was in opposition to itself:
natal Chariklo = 25,58 Leo
It was projecting his natal Chariklo to the world.
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:09:35 -0600
[from Robert v. Heeren]:
Thanks for this piece of information. Interestingly, this time gives the following:
Nessus = 24,19 Leo
While Schoenberg's Chariklo is in 25,58 Leo, so it is being very strongly triggered by Dehmel, which is a confirmation of the Chariklo theme. I think Nessus can be seen in the darker parts of the story, the destructive feelings, and also the willingness to see the rawness of the situation, the strongly intensified feelings that can both destruct and redeem.
I have never read anything by Dehmel. When he died Pylenor (1994TA) was in exact conjunction with the Moon (Feb. 8 1920). The Britannica says that:
--he was a forerunner of Expressionism, and <<one of the first major poets to write about the misery of the working classes>>
--<<he extolled individualism and a life of uninhibited instincts and passion>>
--<<but at the same time he felt drawn to self-sacrifice and the search for harmonious ethical ideas>>
The Encyclopedia keeps talking of "passionate and vigorous expression> and <<ecstatic rhetoric>>. All this seems to be related to the above.
His first collection of poems was "Erlosungen" ("Redemptions") in 1891... a clear Nessus theme: <<the conflict is expressed in the opposition of unbridled sensuality and ascetic self-discipline. Dehmel found a resolution of the conflict through his belief in the mystical power of love and sex. He came to view the sensual relations between a man and a woman as the basis for a full development of the human personality and for a higher spiritual life.>>
This is confirmed when we check that tr. Nessus was conjunct his Moon in 1891.
<<...His treatment of sexual themes was not only passionate but, for the times, shockingly frank.>>
the titles of the main works are suggestive:
I think it is also interesting to note that at this present moment, Chariklo, corrected for precession (1d54' from 1863) is in 26,47 Leo.
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 13:43:45 -0600
... I feel Chariklo is more fertile, more in the sense of bridging between different states. Caring for the dying, for example, is a mutual impregnation, a transcendence of society's boundaries and institutions/education. The mother of fatherless children has gone beyond the norm and has taken-up a father's role, going beyond the traditional mothering role.
... The pain of Chariklo is more liberating and transforming. For example, let's imagine a woman who has lost her children, or one of them; this goes beyond what society has answers for... it is more a great moral and ethical challenge of established religion. This is Chariklo to me.
... My feeling is that Chariklo is not mothering. That goes for the ladies of the main belt asteroids. Chariklo works more on the grounds of equality (peer-to-peer instead of vertical parent-child). Chariklo is uneasy and challenging, unsympathetic to traditional roles; it is like a search, a constant search, a process of constant discovery, a healing, a therapy...
Or, perhaps, seeing it from the other side of the coin, Chariklo is the need for all of that. If someone is abandoned or left behind by parents or by life ("rejected by the family of origin"), then there is a fire burning inside, a search for identity, a search for a family, a search to be someone. This is the uneasiness. There is no point of rest, as in Neptune or Vesta which can become stagnant. A centaur cannot be at rest. It has to break something and challenge the roundness of social institutions and traditions (Vesta) and outmoded ideologies (Neptune).
... I feel that Chariklo is an Uranian widow, like that of "Zorba the Greek" (Irene Papas?). She is a social anomaly, a challenge.
A children-less widow can be Chariklo only if she is a social catalyzer or reformist, one who promotes groups and ideas helping the young go beyond their limitations, offering something more than what is offered by tradition. Or like the figure of the priestess, who is a sort of mother figure but who acts as a spiritual awakener and/or bridge.
Stress and the lonely consecration of barren-ness through work and service sound more like a Vesta thing to me, but this is only my impression. Maybe with some more experience I will find that Chariklo can manifest this way.
... Chariklo is lonely only in way because she is always searching, and always finding. Never barren. She is in the process always, always discovering.
Again, these are only my feelings, or leanings. Not enough experience here...
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 11:19:52 -0600
... I can feel Chariklo in the words "personal isolation", as in the black clothes of a widow. The strongest image that comes to my mind is an unhappy marriage, but in which the 2 partners keep themselves devoted to each other. The centaurean difference, probably, is the "inner fire", the unrest, the hidden passion that finds an outlet in extra-marital affairs, or in other passionate involvements with social causes. I see passion in Chariklo, but I don't feel, so far till now, the painful abandon of Hylonome.
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 19:35:48 -0600
... Chariklo naver comes very close to Saturn, as if Uranus "pulls" her before getting into Saturn's territory, but it briefly (gently) crosses Uranus. Chiron gets close to Uranus, but not enough to cross it, while it crosses Saturn and gets into its territory... they are, speaking roughly, mirror images from either side.
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:05:56 -0600
... I have written about the relationship between Chariklo and Lilith elsewhere, just in passing because the subject was not the centaurs but the Black Moon. You can find my thoughts in a section of my site now dedicated to the Black Moon:
In a nutshell, I think Chariklo represents the "emancipation" aspects of the Lilith archetype.
<<... took on the role of mother and father healer to her own parents, helping to repair the rift and restore ties with them before they die.>>
I can feel Chariklo there... By contrast, Hylonome is more "the victim".
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 08:54:23 -0600
When writing my study on Emiliano Zapata --a Mexican revolutionary of powerful national proportions-- in August 2000 I found that his Sun (only the approximate position is available) was in a less than 1-degree conjunction with the position of Chariklo in the national chart of Mexico:
Sun of Zapata = 16,00 Leo (approx., tropical)
I am going to quote here what I briefly wrote about it, leaving for some other time the commentaries on how the word "centaur" was used in Mexico to refer to him and to Pancho Villa, as well as the symbolism of the white horse as it was used by John Steinbeck and by Elia Kazan in the movie "Viva Zapata", which could be traced to Asbolus.
At that time, since I was not sure (as I am not now) how to interpret Chariklo, I took my keywords and tried to adapt them to the context. My intention is not promoting those keywords but showing what reality of Mexico I felt was represented by Zapata through Chariklo. Perhaps there are other words that can describe it better.
1- "matriarchate". Adapted to a collectivity, this establishes a relationship with "Mother Earth", which was noted in relationship to Zapata, in particular with the "ancestral society" in which he wanted to live and strove to re-establish, emphasized by his commentators.
2- "widowhood", "sadness". The image of "mourning" and the characteristic melancholic figure of Zapata appear, as well as the memory of the bloody revolution. Here is manifested the curiously integrative character of this centaur (an exception until now with respect to the rest that has been studied), because it gives cohesion to a people (conjunct Sun) as symbol and myth of social justice.
3- "sober celebration". The image of the gigantic mural paintings of Mexico appears, silently celebrating the (mythological) achievements of the revolution.
4- "caring for the sick, the dying, the weak". Zapata is the protector of the weak, of those who cannot fight for themselves against oppression and the abuse of the dominant classes.
5- "moral emancipation and freedom". Zapata is a symbol of emancipation and freedom. The freedom of the centaur to keep himself free from society... and pay the price.
The whole study of Zapata is in http://www.expreso.co.cr/posts/zapata.html
Now, making use of what came up to my imagination when I tried to say something about the Chariklo of Bin Laden's Fatwa in conjunction with the Sun/Varuna of Islam (and Pluto of Israel), which I reproduced in "Chechenia III", plus these comments on Zapata, I could add to my keywords and modify them like this:
So, this is how I make my keywords...