by Juan Antonio Revilla

Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 11:39:47 -0600

 <>   Here is a summary of a discussion I had a few weeks ago in the Centaurs list, regarding the astrological meaning of 1181 Lilith. I have removed everything written by others. Please keep in mind that this did not involve either the "Black Moon" or the "Dark Moon".


   Regarding the Lilith symbolism (dark aspects of the feminine), there are very good possibilities among the Centaurs with feminine names, because --to me at least-- centaurs show this plutonic quality of making us deal with what is dark, more "raw", and closer to the life/death boundaries: pain, passion, sickness, joy, redemption, freedom...

   Is there someone here familiar with asteroid 1181 Lilith? I am very interested in learning what the experience of people is with it, and I want to see what the centaurs can add to the understanding of these "Liliths".

   1181 Lilith works within the bounds of present-day social values, which fits the characteristics of the orbit, similar to the many other "facets" and "divisions of labor" of modern-day living that I see relate to the main belt asteroids where 1181 is found.

   On the other hand, centaurs (their orbits) reach well beyond these boundaries and make you "fall" into a crack that becomes a menace to the social order (the orbit-crossing). Female centaurs are in this respect less aggressive than the male ones, i.e., Chariklo never crosses Saturn and only gently crosses Uranus for a few years, although it stays between the world of Saturn and Uranus, leaning much more toward Uranus.

   For example, a married woman (Chariklo) who is very "independent" about her sex life... which of course most times means a crack, a division of her womanhood, a wound, a painful conflict with the rules of society: this is the centaurean paradigm. A (female) centaur, in this context, will transgress limits that 1181 never would.

   I would take any description of a main-belt asteroid like 1181 Lilith and try to accommodate it inside the limits of the asteroid belt: they must live in community; so asteroid 1181 Lilith could represent those aspects of the Lilith archetype that are expressed in their most "civilized" or mediated form.

   This is where it becomes important to consider the centaurs *together* with the main belt asteroids to differentiate the qualities of one and the other, where one sees a division of labor and not a duplication.

   Of course, this a hypothesis, based on the orbital paradigm: centaurs represent the wild and hostile (also ecstatic and redemptive) qualities, while asteroids represent the "civilized" and more gregarious and "tame" part of the archetype. This is necessary if we want astronomical symbolism to match astrological use of it.

   The orbits of most centaurs, almost by definition are "on the margins" of the solar system: they "cross" the orbits of others, they do not "belong" to a specific place, they are "in-between", "out" of the mainstream, unstable, chaotic, precarious, "sick", "resented", wounded", etc...

   The orbit of Lilith is not like this. 1181 belongs to very large community of orbits that are very stable, all bounded in the space between Mars and Jupiter... it never goes out like all the centaurs do... and it also moves much faster, 20 to 40 times faster than the centaurs...

   Modern society's institutions all deal with people who are "different" (the mentally retarded, the cripple, the deaf or the blind, the refugee, the very poor or very "ugly", the minority...). I can see 1181 Lilith's "integrative" work here. These people (or my fear of them) are all part of the community in which we live. They are given rights, protection by the law, social institutions to help them.

   There is a whole system instituted for them. They are not "wild", they are not dangerous, they are just different and need especial attention and care... the prostitute, the poor minority, the homeless, the mad, the widow, the very old... etc.

   This is all very much main-belt asteroids territory. They are all "bounded" and controlled, under the control of social institutions... so maybe Centaurs are not like this, they are wild and break everything, they trespass, and wound, and kill, and also bring ecstasy, redemption, un-conditioning, etc.

   Let's take for example a social worker who deals with street prostitutes. His/her work is institutionalized, is "professional"... this is the Lilith part: the daily living, the values, the problems, the opportunities, the help they receive, their dealings with the police, their "humanity" and at the same time marginality, the prejudices, the abuses, the cruelty or indifference with they are treated, etc. Haow I deal with all this is 1181 Lilith.

   But when you, as a social worker, "touch" the other person's wound, or to put it differently, the other person's wound touches you --which is the same as touching your wound-- then you are out of it completely and you cannot handle it any more, It ceases being institutionalized and becomes primal and wild. It is a question of life and death, of agony and ecstasy, there are no answers available, only pain, and grace, and joy, and passion... then you don't give a damn, you are "taken" by the centaur's energy and you do a moral trespassing, and pay the price.

   The father rapes his daughter, the married woman opens herself to her lover, the "door opens" and light and darkness come together and live in your wound, and in the wound you inflicted on others.

This is the centaurs!



Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 12:47:27 -0600

   I must add:

--the association of 1181 Lilith with the socially rejected people came from Mark Holmes (He has published a book on several asteroids and has some material on them on the Web, including Lilith:  http://www.geocities.com/mahtezcatpoc/hidpanli.html).

--Martha Lang-Wescott has recently posted some material on 1181 Lilith in the "Urania" list. Among other things, she says: <<Explore Lilith for "triangulation," rivalry, decisions, criticism, gender stereotypes (thus, sexism,) and rejection vs. favoritism.>>

   What I wanted was to put all this in the perspective of the main-belt asteroids, in contrast with the centaurs. In my opinion, the "Black Moon" incarnation of Lilith must be more instinctive and primitive. Maybe it can be seen as a "ghost" or "occult" Moon.

   According to Rudolf Steiner, for example the Moon, from the occult point of view, is the incarnation of the "Cosmos of Wisdom" --the prior solar system-- where men and angels were spiritually fused in perfect harmony.

   This may be part of the "cosmic wisdom" or instinctive wisdom" mentioned here regarding the Black Moon.

   Maybe 1181 Lilith and Chariklo are "octaves" of the Lilith archetype. In its most "pure" or basic aspect, as far as my present grasp of the matter goes, the lunar orbit / Lilith is related to:

a- primordial or instinctive wisdom
b- primordial or instinctive sexuality

   or in other words, the deeper aspects o the Lunar symbolism, which are now almost lost. Lilith is the other side of the Moon, the dark side.


Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 15:25:45 -0600

... If there are "rebels" and "wild" asteroids, then this has to show in their orbits. Normal main belt asteroids do not show this behavior. I'm following a paradigm that states that astronomical reality must match astrological symbolism. The orbit of 1181 Lilith does not belong to this category of "rebels". There are bodies that enter the asteroid belt but do not belong there, and they would fit better what you are describing (like Hidalgo or the Damocles group) and there are others that travel from one extreme to the other of the main belt but never leave (like Hopi). We can always find an orbit that models the social behavior we are looking for or want to chart.


... The main point I was making is to make distinctions between the realm of the centaurs and the realm of the asteroids. You cannot talk of a slow planet the same way you talk of a fast-moving planet. Centaurs --as I wrote-- move 20 to 40 times slower than the main-belt asteroids, and this requires that we adjust the meaning we give to them or at least the way we interpret them.


Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 11:45:34 -0600

... It is confusing when people base their use of asteroids solely on their name, without critical observation or insight. It is unfortunate that asteroid work nowadays is mostly name-playing, in my opinion of the most trivial type.

   Mark Holmes explains that originally 1181 received its name by astronomers not from the myth but from the very talented classical composer Lili Boulanger --sister of the conductor and teacher Nadia Boulanger-- who died very young.

   There are many asteroids (e.g. Hekate) with myths which do not match the orbits at all. That is why I was trying to accommodate people's experience with 1181 Lilith within the framework offered by main-belt orbits: a very large collectivity working together in community without breaking the social order.

   The idea I was proposing is that all these archetypes have different ways or "levels" of expression. The level that corresponds to asteroids of the main-belt with regular-shaped orbits is everyday institutionalized living. That is why the 1181 Lilith aspect of the Lilith archetype finds expression in your case through your social work: it is bounded and institutionalized, and its aim is social integration: this is the dynamics of this type of asteroids. "Lilith" here brings the socially marginal or rejected into society's institutions, and is more integrative.

   But there are other aspects of Lilith that cannot be institutionalized. They are more primal and wild, "breaking into" or invading a person's life (centaurs), or more instinctive and related to repressed sexuality (succubi and nightly demons). Of course words are very relative, but it is not difficult to see the differences when one keeps in mind the 3 realms: the lunar realm, esp. the lunar orbit and its dark side, the asteroids of the main belt, the centaurean-plutonian tabu-breaking and moral trespassing, etc.


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